Sapientia et virtus in Chinese

[Daniel Tompkins]

Folks,

I thought you might be interested in this question about Latin -
Chinese translation from an old friend. It provides a nice example of
the dangers of word-for -word translation:


Last night I won a watch for correctly (?) identifying the English
meaning of the University of Hong Kong's Latin logo "Sapientia et
Virtus." The occasion was a gathering of the HKU Alumni Assn. in the
NYC Metro Area to host the current Vice Chancellor, Lap-Chee Tsui. My
connection is that I'm a friend of the Chairman and I was a Research
Associate at HKU in 1970-71, and its Centre for Asian Studies produced
by ethnographic film, "Hungry Ghosts."

I said it meant "Wisdom and Virtue." Other choices included
"Understanding and Virtue," "Knowledge and Virtue," etc. Now the
university's logo also has four Chinese characters that presumably
translate the two Latin nouns. About virtue there is no dispute. The
Chinese is "de" (Cantonese "dak"). This is the character for Germany,
Deutschland, the Virtuous Country. (It's also one of the characters of
my oldest son's name: Doug/Dak.)

But the Chinese can be ambiguous about the translation of "sapientia."
The character used by HKU is "Ming" which by itself can refer to
"bright," to the eponymous dynasty, and a number of other things. It
is when it is in a two character combination that the ambiguity
dissolves. But the Chinese conventions for writing logos, slogans and
other such verbiage meant to be pithy, does not provide the second
character. The remaining two characters in Chinese in the logo can be
thought of as what one does with "ming" and "de."

So, no help from the Chinese since, depending on the second character
attached to "ming," it might indeed be any of the several alternatives:
wisdom, understanding, knowledge.

So, on this day after, with more sober thoughts, I turn to the source.

What is the standard translation of "sapientia"? What else might it
allowably be translated as in English? And what would be appropriate
Latin translations for wisdom, understanding, knowledge?

Daniel P. Tompkins
Director, Intellectual Heritage Program
214 Anderson Hall, Temple University
1114 W Berks St, Philadelphia, PA 19122-6090
215 204-4900 (phone), -2359 (fax)
http://courses.temple.edu/ih/

[Ling Ouyang]

Good grief! It's not a word-for-word translation; it's translating
philosophy. "Mingde" and "gewu" are Confucian terms. In fact, I'm not sure
if your friend would have won if it's a word-for-word translation, because
it seems like s/he only translated "mingde" (literal translation: "luminous
virtue"), and ignored "gewu", "[t]he remaining two characters in Chinese in
the logo", which according to your friend, "can be thought of as what one
does with "ming" and "de"". Actually, a literal translation of "gewu" is
"the investigation of things", or shall we say broadly speaking,
"knowledge, science, or wisdom" etc--in other words, sapientia.

A few more things:
1. Classical Chinese is read from top to bottom, right to left.
2. Germany is called "De"-country because it's closer to Deutsch-country,
not because it's the Virtuous Country.
3. Hmm. The source. The Chinese terms are found in literature written way
before the Roman Republic fell.

Post by Daniel Tompkins
Folks,
I thought you might be interested in this question about Latin -
Chinese translation from an old friend. It provides a nice example of
Last night I won a watch for correctly (?) identifying the English
meaning of the University of Hong Kong's Latin logo "Sapientia et
Virtus." The occasion was a gathering of the HKU Alumni Assn. in the
NYC Metro Area to host the current Vice Chancellor, Lap-Chee Tsui. My
connection is that I'm a friend of the Chairman and I was a Research
Associate at HKU in 1970-71, and its Centre for Asian Studies produced
by ethnographic film, "Hungry Ghosts."
I said it meant "Wisdom and Virtue." Other choices included
"Understanding and Virtue," "Knowledge and Virtue," etc. Now the
university's logo also has four Chinese characters that presumably
translate the two Latin nouns. About virtue there is no dispute. The
Chinese is "de" (Cantonese "dak"). This is the character for Germany,
Deutschland, the Virtuous Country. (It's also one of the characters of
my oldest son's name: Doug/Dak.)
But the Chinese can be ambiguous about the translation of "sapientia."
The character used by HKU is "Ming" which by itself can refer to
"bright," to the eponymous dynasty, and a number of other things. It
is when it is in a two character combination that the ambiguity
dissolves. But the Chinese conventions for writing logos, slogans and
other such verbiage meant to be pithy, does not provide the second
character. The remaining two characters in Chinese in the logo can be
thought of as what one does with "ming" and "de."
So, no help from the Chinese since, depending on the second character
wisdom, understanding, knowledge.
So, on this day after, with more sober thoughts, I turn to the source.
What is the standard translation of "sapientia"? What else might it
allowably be translated as in English? And what would be appropriate
Latin translations for wisdom, understanding, knowledge?
Daniel P. Tompkins
Director, Intellectual Heritage Program
214 Anderson Hall, Temple University
1114 W Berks St, Philadelphia, PA 19122-6090
215 204-4900 (phone), -2359 (fax)
http://courses.temple.edu/ih/

Ling Ouyang
http://janusquirinus.org/

[Ling Ouyang]

Er, I just got scolded(!) by my dad for not knowing my Chinese history and

Post by Ling Ouyang
3. Hmm. The source. The Chinese terms are found in literature written way
before the Roman Republic fell.

Not way before the Roman Republic fell; it should be around the time the
Etruscan monarchy fell.

Confucius (551-479 B.C.E.), _The Great Learning_:

"What the great learning teaches, is to illustrate illustrious virtue
[mingde]; to renovate the people; and to rest in the highest excellence.

The point where to rest being known, the object of pursuit is then
determined; and, that being determined, a calm unperturbedness may be
attained to. To that calmness there will succeed a tranquil repose. In that
repose there may be careful deliberation, and that deliberation will be
followed by the attainment of the desired end.

Things have their root and their branches. Affairs have their end and their
beginning. To know what is first and what is last will lead near to what is
taught in the Great Learning.

The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue [mingde]
throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own states. Wishing to
order well their states, they first regulated their families. Wishing to
regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons. Wishing to
cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to
rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts.
Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost
their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of
things [gewu].

Things being investigated [gewu], knowledge became complete. Their
knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere. Their thoughts being
sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified,
their persons were cultivated. Their persons being cultivated, their
families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their states were
rightly governed. Their states being rightly governed, the whole kingdom
was made tranquil and happy."

translation from <http://classics.mit.edu/Confucius/learning.html>
and for Steve, <http://zhongwen.com/daxue.htm> .

Post by Ling Ouyang
Good grief! It's not a word-for-word translation; it's translating
philosophy. "Mingde" and "gewu" are Confucian terms. In fact, I'm not sure
if your friend would have won if it's a word-for-word translation, because
it seems like s/he only translated "mingde" (literal translation: "luminous
virtue"), and ignored "gewu", "[t]he remaining two characters in Chinese in
the logo", which according to your friend, "can be thought of as what one
does with "ming" and "de"". Actually, a literal translation of "gewu" is
"the investigation of things", or shall we say broadly speaking,
"knowledge, science, or wisdom" etc--in other words, sapientia.
1. Classical Chinese is read from top to bottom, right to left.
2. Germany is called "De"-country because it's closer to Deutsch-country,
not because it's the Virtuous Country.
3. Hmm. The source. The Chinese terms are found in literature written way
before the Roman Republic fell.

Post by Daniel Tompkins
Folks,
I thought you might be interested in this question about Latin -
Chinese translation from an old friend. It provides a nice example of
Last night I won a watch for correctly (?) identifying the English
meaning of the University of Hong Kong's Latin logo "Sapientia et
Virtus." The occasion was a gathering of the HKU Alumni Assn. in the
NYC Metro Area to host the current Vice Chancellor, Lap-Chee Tsui. My
connection is that I'm a friend of the Chairman and I was a Research
Associate at HKU in 1970-71, and its Centre for Asian Studies produced
by ethnographic film, "Hungry Ghosts."
I said it meant "Wisdom and Virtue." Other choices included
"Understanding and Virtue," "Knowledge and Virtue," etc. Now the
university's logo also has four Chinese characters that presumably
translate the two Latin nouns. About virtue there is no dispute. The
Chinese is "de" (Cantonese "dak"). This is the character for Germany,
Deutschland, the Virtuous Country. (It's also one of the characters of
my oldest son's name: Doug/Dak.)
But the Chinese can be ambiguous about the translation of "sapientia."
The character used by HKU is "Ming" which by itself can refer to
"bright," to the eponymous dynasty, and a number of other things. It
is when it is in a two character combination that the ambiguity
dissolves. But the Chinese conventions for writing logos, slogans and
other such verbiage meant to be pithy, does not provide the second
character. The remaining two characters in Chinese in the logo can be
thought of as what one does with "ming" and "de."
So, no help from the Chinese since, depending on the second character
wisdom, understanding, knowledge.
So, on this day after, with more sober thoughts, I turn to the source.
What is the standard translation of "sapientia"? What else might it
allowably be translated as in English? And what would be appropriate
Latin translations for wisdom, understanding, knowledge?
Daniel P. Tompkins
Director, Intellectual Heritage Program
214 Anderson Hall, Temple University
1114 W Berks St, Philadelphia, PA 19122-6090
215 204-4900 (phone), -2359 (fax)
http://courses.temple.edu/ih/

Ling Ouyang
http://janusquirinus.org/

Ling Ouyang
http://janusquirinus.org/

[James Butrica]

Post by Daniel Tompkins
Last night I won a watch for correctly (?) identifying the English
meaning of the University of Hong Kong's Latin logo "Sapientia et
Virtus."

I would have said that the translation of *uirtus* by "virtue" is more
dubious than that of *sapientia* by "wisdom."

But my real question is: does anyone know whence and how Hong Kong came to
adopt this motto? I know an ancient Roman who attributed the City's success
to "uirtus belli" and "sapientia pacis"; I doubt a direct connection, but
no doubt similar ideas can be found in other Roman authors. (In fact, I
think that a student at Exeter has recently completed a thesis on this or
some related topic.)

James L. P. Butrica
St. John's NL A1C 5S7
[phone] (home)
[phone] (office)

[Ling Ouyang]

I am not sure, but I think the Latin is just a translation of the Confucian
terms--that it appears in Roman literature was just a bonus. Remember we
are no longer talking about Latin and a modern language; we are talking
about another ancient language.

"Virtus belli" and "sapientia pacis". How ironic. Hong Kong was ceded in
the Opium War.

Post by James Butrica

Post by Daniel Tompkins
Last night I won a watch for correctly (?) identifying the English
meaning of the University of Hong Kong's Latin logo "Sapientia et
Virtus."

I would have said that the translation of *uirtus* by "virtue" is more
dubious than that of *sapientia* by "wisdom."
But my real question is: does anyone know whence and how Hong Kong came to
adopt this motto? I know an ancient Roman who attributed the City's success
to "uirtus belli" and "sapientia pacis"; I doubt a direct connection, but
no doubt similar ideas can be found in other Roman authors. (In fact, I
think that a student at Exeter has recently completed a thesis on this or
some related topic.)
James L. P. Butrica
St. John's NL A1C 5S7
[phone] (home)
[phone] (office)

Ling Ouyang
http://janusquirinus.org/