Discussion:
the victims of anger in Seneca On Anger 1.2.2
Jeffrey B. Gibson
2009-01-15 23:19:57 UTC
Permalink
A friend raised the following question on another List:

*****
Is it possible to identify all the victims in Seneca, /On Anger/ 1.2.2?

/Aspice nobilissimarum civitatum fundamenta vix notabilia; has ira
deiecit. aspice solitudines per multa milia sine habitatore
desertas; has ira exhausit. aspice tot memoriae proditos duces mali
exempla fati; alium ira in cubili suo confodit, alium intra sacra
mensae iura percussit, alium intra leges celebrisque spectaculum
fori lancinavit, alium filii parricidio dare sanguinem iussit, alium
servili manu regalem aperire iugulum, alium in cruce membra diffindere./

Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be
noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on]
for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many
leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil
fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred
laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a
spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by
the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat
opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched
upon the cross.

It is possible that Seneca is being generic here, I suppose, but some of
the deaths seem pretty specific.

Sertorius was killed at a banquet, one of the Gracchus brothers (I
think) was killed by a slave, and Asellio was killed in the forum. (So
was Galba, but he died after Seneca.) Are these the intended referents
or not? Who suffered parricide? Who was stabbed in bed?

*****

Is anyone here able (and willing) to help with this?

Jeffrey
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail ***@comcast.net
Yvan Nadeau
2009-01-16 10:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Destroying cities -

irae Thyesten exitio graui
strauere et altis urbibus ultimae
stetere causae cur perirent
funditus imprimeretque muris

hostile aratrum exercitus insolens. (Hor. /c/. 1. 16. 17 - 21)

yn

Yvan Nadeau
***@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html
Post by Jeffrey B. Gibson
*****
Is it possible to identify all the victims in Seneca, /On Anger/ 1.2.2?
/Aspice nobilissimarum civitatum fundamenta vix notabilia; has ira
deiecit. aspice solitudines per multa milia sine habitatore
desertas; has ira exhausit. aspice tot memoriae proditos duces mali
exempla fati; alium ira in cubili suo confodit, alium intra sacra
mensae iura percussit, alium intra leges celebrisque spectaculum
fori lancinavit, alium filii parricidio dare sanguinem iussit, alium
servili manu regalem aperire iugulum, alium in cruce membra
diffindere./
Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be
noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on]
for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many
leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil
fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred
laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a
spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by
the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat
opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched
upon the cross.
It is possible that Seneca is being generic here, I suppose, but some
of the deaths seem pretty specific.
Sertorius was killed at a banquet, one of the Gracchus brothers (I
think) was killed by a slave, and Asellio was killed in the forum. (So
was Galba, but he died after Seneca.) Are these the intended referents
or not? Who suffered parricide? Who was stabbed in bed?
*****
Is anyone here able (and willing) to help with this?
Jeffrey
James M. Pfundstein
2009-01-17 07:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Basore, the editor of the Loeb "Seneca's Essays", suggests Clitus
(Alexander the So-Called-Great's friend and victim) for the guy killed
at the feast. The one who was crucified might be Gavius, Verres'
victim made famous by Cicero. Saturninus seems like a good candidate
for the person killed in the crowded Forum. The king killed by a
slave might be Ptolemy of Mauretania, whose execution was ordered by
Caligula in a fit of pique. I'm floundering a bit on the next one, but
the parricide might be the archetypal father-killer, Oedipus (notably
ill-tempered in Sophocles and in Seneca). The Danaids (except
whatshername) stabbed their husbands/cousins in bed; maybe the
singular _alium_ militates against that.

JM("Mitteris Erebo uile pro cunctis caput [etc.]")P
Post by Jeffrey B. Gibson
*****
Is it possible to identify all the victims in Seneca, /On Anger/ 1.2.2?
/Aspice nobilissimarum civitatum fundamenta vix notabilia; has ira
deiecit. aspice solitudines per multa milia sine habitatore
desertas; has ira exhausit. aspice tot memoriae proditos duces mali
exempla fati; alium ira in cubili suo confodit, alium intra sacra
mensae iura percussit, alium intra leges celebrisque spectaculum
fori lancinavit, alium filii parricidio dare sanguinem iussit, alium
servili manu regalem aperire iugulum, alium in cruce membra
diffindere./
Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be
noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on]
for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many
leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil
fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred
laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a
spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by
the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat
opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched
upon the cross.
It is possible that Seneca is being generic here, I suppose, but some
of the deaths seem pretty specific.
Sertorius was killed at a banquet, one of the Gracchus brothers (I
think) was killed by a slave, and Asellio was killed in the forum. (So
was Galba, but he died after Seneca.) Are these the intended
referents
or not? Who suffered parricide? Who was stabbed in bed?
*****
Is anyone here able (and willing) to help with this?
Jeffrey
Yvan Nadeau
2009-01-17 15:10:54 UTC
Permalink
A couple of suggestions:

"murdered in bed" Scipio Aemilianus?

Destroying cities -

irae Thyesten exitio graui
strauere et altis urbibus ultimae
stetere causae cur perirent
funditus imprimeretque muris

hostile aratrum exercitus insolens. (Hor. /c/. 1. 16. 17 - 21)


yn

Yvan Nadeau
***@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html
Post by Jeffrey B. Gibson
*****
Is it possible to identify all the victims in Seneca, /On Anger/ 1.2.2?
/Aspice nobilissimarum civitatum fundamenta vix notabilia; has ira
deiecit. aspice solitudines per multa milia sine habitatore
desertas; has ira exhausit. aspice tot memoriae proditos duces mali
exempla fati; alium ira in cubili suo confodit, alium intra sacra
mensae iura percussit, alium intra leges celebrisque spectaculum
fori lancinavit, alium filii parricidio dare sanguinem iussit, alium
servili manu regalem aperire iugulum, alium in cruce membra
diffindere./
Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be
noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on]
for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many
leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil
fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred
laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a
spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by
the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat
opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched
upon the cross.
It is possible that Seneca is being generic here, I suppose, but some
of the deaths seem pretty specific.
Sertorius was killed at a banquet, one of the Gracchus brothers (I
think) was killed by a slave, and Asellio was killed in the forum. (So
was Galba, but he died after Seneca.) Are these the intended referents
or not? Who suffered parricide? Who was stabbed in bed?
*****
Is anyone here able (and willing) to help with this?
Jeffrey
James M. Pfundstein
2009-01-17 19:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yvan Nadeau
"murdered in bed" Scipio Aemilianus?
The Latin is more specific, though-- _confodit_--"dug into, stabbed,
pierced through." Scipio Aemilianus was discovered dead (and a good
job, too) but not, unless I'm mistaken, visibly wounded.

I hope this doesn't sound argumentative--I don't think my own
suggestion for this one was especially strong either.

Stepping back: it's possible that the rhetorical purpose of this
catalogue is to provoke a discussion of just this sort. The cloud of
examples that arises from the audience's conversation would be more
impressive than one particular instance, however apt.

JMP("Popularis")
Yvan Nadeau
2009-01-17 19:32:35 UTC
Permalink
True.

yn

Yvan Nadeau
***@btinternet.com
3/13 Forrest Hill
EDINBURGH EH1 2QL
0131-225-8240
http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/ynadeau/index.html
Post by James M. Pfundstein
Post by Yvan Nadeau
"murdered in bed" Scipio Aemilianus?
The Latin is more specific, though-- _confodit_--"dug into, stabbed,
pierced through." Scipio Aemilianus was discovered dead (and a good
job, too) but not, unless I'm mistaken, visibly wounded.
I hope this doesn't sound argumentative--I don't think my own
suggestion for this one was especially strong either.
Stepping back: it's possible that the rhetorical purpose of this
catalogue is to provoke a discussion of just this sort. The cloud of
examples that arises from the audience's conversation would be more
impressive than one particular instance, however apt.
JMP("Popularis")
Terrence Lockyer
2009-01-17 20:07:00 UTC
Permalink
For "murdered in bed", what about King Candaules (a. k.
a. Myrsilos) of Sardis, killed in his bedroom by his
dagger-wielding favourite Gyges at the instigation of
the king's wife, who was angered by her husband's
conniving with Gyges for the latter to see her naked
(because the king was besotted with her and wished
Gyges to see that she was indeed the most beautfiul
woman in the world). It's in Herodotos 1.7-13, part of
the story of Kroisos of Lydia (the one Solon supposedly
warned obliquely not to think himself too happy so long
as part of his life story remained unknowable), and
surely quite well-known to educated Romans.


Terrence Lockyer
Johannesburg, South Africa
James M. Pfundstein
2009-01-17 21:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Ah--good one. Much the best suggestion yet for the "stabbed in bed"
exemplum.

JMP("Perforatus")
Post by Terrence Lockyer
For "murdered in bed", what about King Candaules (a. k.
a. Myrsilos) of Sardis, killed in his bedroom by his
dagger-wielding favourite Gyges at the instigation of
the king's wife, who was angered by her husband's
conniving with Gyges for the latter to see her naked
(because the king was besotted with her and wished
Gyges to see that she was indeed the most beautfiul
woman in the world). It's in Herodotos 1.7-13, part of
the story of Kroisos of Lydia (the one Solon supposedly
warned obliquely not to think himself too happy so long
as part of his life story remained unknowable), and
surely quite well-known to educated Romans.
Terrence Lockyer
Johannesburg, South Africa
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