Discussion:
Earliest occurrences of the idea that the mindset of someone who performs a magical act or prayer will itself affect the outcome?
(too old to reply)
Stewart Felker
2014-10-22 00:20:38 UTC
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I'm aware that some things in the New Testament might qualify as such; but
I'm particularly looking for pre-Christian examples of this (or, in any
case, examples that can be plausibly be shown to have not been influenced
by Christianity).

I'm also aware that, even in early Greek prayer, _sincerity_ was thought to
be necessary for fulfillment.

But I guess I'm looking for examples more along the lines of where the
"power" really rests with the individual him- or- herself: where the
strength of his/her belief in the likelihood of a prayer or spell's
fulfillment itself affects the fulfillment.

Any leads would help!




Stewart Felker,
University of Memphis
Bradley Skene
2014-10-22 00:50:04 UTC
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This isn't quite what you;re looking for, but at Luke 8:46, a woman is
healed by brushing up against woman in a crowd. Jesus notices it (tell's
the disciples ""Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from
me." and evidently is surprised as hell by it. So evidently in that
case intention had nothing to do with it.

At PGM I. 170ff, the magician has to put in a frame of mind so that he is
paying attention to his parhedros before he starts operating.
Post by Stewart Felker
I'm aware that some things in the New Testament might qualify as such; but
I'm particularly looking for pre-Christian examples of this (or, in any
case, examples that can be plausibly be shown to have not been influenced
by Christianity).
I'm also aware that, even in early Greek prayer, _sincerity_ was thought to
be necessary for fulfillment.
But I guess I'm looking for examples more along the lines of where the
"power" really rests with the individual him- or- herself: where the
strength of his/her belief in the likelihood of a prayer or spell's
fulfillment itself affects the fulfillment.
Any leads would help!
Stewart Felker,
University of Memphis
Ralph Hancock
2014-10-22 01:09:18 UTC
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Bradley Skene wrote:

At Luke 8:46, a woman is
Post by Bradley Skene
healed by brushing up against woman in a crowd. Jesus notices it (tell's
the disciples ""Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from
me." and evidently is surprised as hell by it. So evidently in that
case intention had nothing to do with it.
I think you're wrong about this. The woman touched Jesus with the intention
of being healed, and she was. Jesus was surprised because he 'perceived
that virtue had gone out of [him]' -- his power had been tapped. When he
saw what had happened, he said, 'Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith
hath made thee whole; go in peace' -- that is, he recognised her intention.

RH
Bradley Skene
2014-10-22 13:08:27 UTC
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The point is, he had no idea about it before hand; no intention of healing
her.
Post by Ralph Hancock
At Luke 8:46, a woman is
Post by Bradley Skene
healed by brushing up against woman in a crowd. Jesus notices it (tell's
the disciples ""Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from
me." and evidently is surprised as hell by it. So evidently in that
case intention had nothing to do with it.
I think you're wrong about this. The woman touched Jesus with the intention
of being healed, and she was. Jesus was surprised because he 'perceived
that virtue had gone out of [him]' -- his power had been tapped. When he
saw what had happened, he said, 'Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith
hath made thee whole; go in peace' -- that is, he recognised her intention.
RH
Stewart Felker
2014-10-22 17:02:03 UTC
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Bradley: I'm having trouble seeing exactly what you were referring to in
PGM I.170f.


Stewart Felker,
University of Memphis
Post by Bradley Skene
The point is, he had no idea about it before hand; no intention of healing
her.
Post by Ralph Hancock
At Luke 8:46, a woman is
Post by Bradley Skene
healed by brushing up against woman in a crowd. Jesus notices it
(tell's
Post by Ralph Hancock
Post by Bradley Skene
the disciples ""Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from
me." and evidently is surprised as hell by it. So evidently in that
case intention had nothing to do with it.
I think you're wrong about this. The woman touched Jesus with the
intention
Post by Ralph Hancock
of being healed, and she was. Jesus was surprised because he 'perceived
that virtue had gone out of [him]' -- his power had been tapped. When he
saw what had happened, he said, 'Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith
hath made thee whole; go in peace' -- that is, he recognised her
intention.
Post by Ralph Hancock
RH
Bradley Skene
2014-10-22 17:21:36 UTC
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Sorry. I had to cut that off in a hurry last night.

In general, the papyrus describes the procedure for obtaining a parehedros,
but here it starts to talking about the benefits of the arrangement: "When
you go abroad, he will go abroad with you....And if someone asks you, "What
do I have in mind?" or "What has happened to me?" or even "What is going to
happen?" question the angle and he will tell you in silence. But you speak
to the one who questions you as if to yourself."

What this looks like is that part of the magicians repertoire with his
clients is cold reading (google it if you need to). The magician clearly
needs to begin his working day by invoking the angel (a few liens later),
to get himself in the right mind set to perform. This seems to have some
bearing on the original question. Its not a matter of thinking pure
thoughts or any other ritual requirement like that, but rather a matter of
the establishing the concentration and attention necessary to do the work.
If he not "on" he will not be able to impress his clients and thereby
succeed in his objective.
Post by Stewart Felker
Bradley: I'm having trouble seeing exactly what you were referring to in
PGM I.170f.
Stewart Felker,
University of Memphis
Post by Bradley Skene
The point is, he had no idea about it before hand; no intention of
healing
Post by Bradley Skene
her.
Post by Ralph Hancock
At Luke 8:46, a woman is
Post by Bradley Skene
healed by brushing up against woman in a crowd. Jesus notices it
(tell's
Post by Ralph Hancock
Post by Bradley Skene
the disciples ""Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out
from
Post by Bradley Skene
Post by Ralph Hancock
Post by Bradley Skene
me." and evidently is surprised as hell by it. So evidently in that
case intention had nothing to do with it.
I think you're wrong about this. The woman touched Jesus with the
intention
Post by Ralph Hancock
of being healed, and she was. Jesus was surprised because he 'perceived
that virtue had gone out of [him]' -- his power had been tapped. When
he
Post by Bradley Skene
Post by Ralph Hancock
saw what had happened, he said, 'Daughter, be of good comfort: thy
faith
Post by Bradley Skene
Post by Ralph Hancock
hath made thee whole; go in peace' -- that is, he recognised her
intention.
Post by Ralph Hancock
RH
Barry Hofstetter
2014-10-23 00:55:16 UTC
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/rare-roman-monument-bearing-hadrians-name-found-in-jerusalem/
--
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Opinions in private email do not reflect those of any institution with
which I am affiliated
Michael Smith
2014-10-23 02:24:00 UTC
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Of course every time I hear of some sensational new find in
Israel -- Mrs J Christ's diary, for example -- my BS
detector goes off at full volume. But this one seems innocuous
enough to be genuine.

That's quite a picture of the Israel Antiquities Authority's grandiose
GHQ. Albert Speer meets HH Richardson. I suppose it's meant to
remind us of the Krak des Chevaliers.
Lorenzo Smerillo
2014-10-23 03:49:46 UTC
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Post by Michael Smith
Of course every time I hear of some sensational new find in
Israel -- Mrs J Christ's diary, for example -- my BS
detector goes off at full volume. But this one seems innocuous
enough to be genuine.
That's quite a picture of the Israel Antiquities Authority's grandiose
GHQ. Albert Speer meets HH Richardson. I suppose it's meant to
remind us of the Krak des Chevaliers.
Several rather oddly incongruous implications and factitious inferences
seem to have been inpissated in the above screed.

Concerning the architect of the Rockefeller Museum, v.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austen_Harrison

satis.
Lorenzo Smerillo
Department of Classics and Humanities
Montclair State University
Montclair, NJ 07043
Michael Smith
2014-10-23 06:21:34 UTC
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Post by Lorenzo Smerillo
Post by Michael Smith
That's quite a picture of the Israel Antiquities Authority's grandiose
GHQ. Albert Speer meets HH Richardson. I suppose it's meant to
remind us of the Krak des Chevaliers.
Several rather oddly incongruous implications and factitious inferences
seem to have been inpissated in the above screed.
I presume you mean 'inspissated'? Though 'inpissated' is quite good
and I intend to steal it.

Don't know quite what inferences one might draw or implications
detect in my 'screed' -- a word which has certainly earned a
century or two of retirement, like 'limn', or 'welkin', which are
hardly ready for rehabilitation even yet. But in any case I would
like to hear more about these implications and inferences.

The building is a glaring ponderous monstrosity. It's nice to know
about the Rockefeller connection; they seem to have liked this
sort of thing. Rockefeller Chapel, at the U of Chicago, shows
a certain family resemblance.

It's also nice to know about Austen Harrison. I have a small
personal collection of bad architects whom I cherish, and on
the strength of Nuffield College alone, old Austen immediately
won a Knight Grand Cross in this disorderly order.
Ralph Hancock
2014-10-23 22:11:42 UTC
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The building is a glaring ponderous monstrosity [...] I have a
small personal collection of bad architects whom I cherish,
and on the strength of Nuffield College alone, old Austen
order.
Perhaps that is a bit hard on Harrison. The Israeli Antiquities
building integrated quite well with the blocky, small-windowed stone
buildings of Old Jerusalem as it was then. Nuffield College is a
disaster mainly because Lord Nuffield rejected Harrison's design and
insisted that it should be built in the style of 'Cotswold domestic
architecture', resulting in a bunch of giant cottages; and the tower
attained its peculiar hideousness because its design was altered to
accommodate a store of library books.

RH
Charles E. Jones
2014-10-23 22:42:39 UTC
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Whatever one might think of the building (and I myself like it inside and out), or of the architect (no opinion from me), the complex colonial politics which brought it and similar institutions about are interesting. Worth reading is:

Toward a Historian's Laboratory: The Breasted-Rockefeller Museum Projects in Egypt, Palestine, and America
Jeffrey Abt
Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, Vol. 33, (1996), pp. 173-194
Published by: American Research Center in Egypt
Article DOI: 10.2307/40000614
Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org.ezaccess.libraries.psu.edu/stable/40000614

In the Oriental Institute library there is a very elaborate folio-size "brochure" in a hand made leather case, presumably intended as a fundraising tool.

-Chuck Jones-


________________________________________
From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group [CLASSICS-***@lsv.uky.edu] on behalf of Ralph Hancock [***@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:11 PM
To: CLASSICS-***@lsv.uky.edu
Subject: Re: [CLASSICS-L] Hadrian Inscription
The building is a glaring ponderous monstrosity [...] I have a
small personal collection of bad architects whom I cherish,
and on the strength of Nuffield College alone, old Austen
order.
Perhaps that is a bit hard on Harrison. The Israeli Antiquities
building integrated quite well with the blocky, small-windowed stone
buildings of Old Jerusalem as it was then. Nuffield College is a
disaster mainly because Lord Nuffield rejected Harrison's design and
insisted that it should be built in the style of 'Cotswold domestic
architecture', resulting in a bunch of giant cottages; and the tower
attained its peculiar hideousness because its design was altered to
accommodate a store of library books.

RH

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