silenus and easter

[david meadows]

Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've meant
to ask for ages ... under april 5 is written:

There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller, respecting
a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs annually at
Rhodes which deserves the attention of the literary traveller: it is the
ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of boys,
crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended with
great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable
example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan
rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring,
a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary
belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The
same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary
here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin.
According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and
huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and
foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old
wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups,
and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who
restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the
favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into
gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an
enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his
Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.

...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has
anyone else?

dm

[Diana Wright]

David,

What's the date of this report?

DW


----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 AM
Subject: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've meant to ask for ages ... under april 5 is written:

There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller, respecting a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs annually at Rhodes which deserves the attention of the literary traveller: it is the ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of boys, crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended with great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring, a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin. According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups, and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.

...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has anyone else?

dm

[david meadows]

Hone was writing this stuff in 1825/26

dm

Post by Diana Wright
David,
What's the date of this report?
DW
----- Original Message -----
*Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 AM
*Subject:* [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter
Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've meant
There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller,
respecting a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs
it is the ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of
boys, crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended
with great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable
example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan
rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring,
a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary
belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The
same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary
here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin.
According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and
huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and
foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old
wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups,
and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who
restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the
favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into
gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an
enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his
Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.
...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has anyone else?
dm

[Diana Wright]

But when was Clark writing?

Some years ago, Timothy Gregory of the Corinth excavations & ASCSA was looking for pagan survivals. He said in a talk at Dumbarton Oaks that he had not found one survival or report of survival that could not be explained by some other means.

I imagine that quite a lot of visitors to Greece over the centuries have seen things through a classical filter & have assumed continuities. We do know of numbers of quaint local customs that turn out to have been engineered by post-Revolution intellectuals inspired by the folk-lore movement.

Before claiming classical continuity in the Rhodes report, for example, you would need to consider the effects of the several-hundred years' occupation by the Knights of Rhodes, & then the several-hundred years' occupation by the Ottomans, plus the several-hundred years' tradition of employment as oarsmen on Venetian ships.

The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.


DW



Hone was writing this stuff in 1825/26

dm


On 1/2/06, Diana Wright <***@comcast.net> wrote:
David,

What's the date of this report?

DW


----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 AM
Subject: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've meant to ask for ages ... under april 5 is written:

There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller, respecting a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs annually at Rhodes which deserves the attention of the literary traveller: it is the ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of boys, crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended with great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring, a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin. According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups, and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.

...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has anyone else?

dm

[david meadows]

Clarke's *Travels in Europe, Asia and Africa* appeared in eleven volumes
over 1810-24 ... curiously, it's not online anywhere ...

dm

Post by Diana Wright
But when was Clark writing?
Some years ago, Timothy Gregory of the Corinth excavations & ASCSA was
looking for pagan survivals. He said in a talk at Dumbarton Oaks that he
had not found one survival or report of survival that could not be explained
by some other means.
I imagine that quite a lot of visitors to Greece over the centuries have
seen things through a classical filter & have assumed continuities. We do
know of numbers of quaint local customs that turn out to have been
engineered by post-Revolution intellectuals inspired by the folk-lore
movement.
Before claiming classical continuity in the Rhodes report, for example,
you would need to consider the effects of the several-hundred years'
occupation by the Knights of Rhodes, & then the several-hundred years'
occupation by the Ottomans, plus the several-hundred years' tradition of
employment as oarsmen on Venetian ships.
The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her
virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and
since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were
available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.
DW
Hone was writing this stuff in 1825/26
dm

Post by Diana Wright
David,
What's the date of this report?
DW
----- Original Message -----
*Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 AM
*Subject:* [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter
Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've
There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller,
respecting a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs
it is the ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of
boys, crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended
with great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable
example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan
rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring,
a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary
belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The
same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary
here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin.
According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and
huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and
foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old
wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups,
and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who
restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the
favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into
gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an
enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his
Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.
...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has anyone else?
dm

[Gene O'Grady]

I guess it says something that for me E D Clarke has always been the guy that found Arethas' manuscript of Plato, and none of you that seem to be more familiar with him have mentioned that.

gmo
----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


Clarke's *Travels in Europe, Asia and Africa* appeared in eleven volumes over 1810-24 ... curiously, it's not online anywhere ...

dm


On 1/2/06, Diana Wright <***@comcast.net> wrote:
But when was Clark writing?

Some years ago, Timothy Gregory of the Corinth excavations & ASCSA was looking for pagan survivals. He said in a talk at Dumbarton Oaks that he had not found one survival or report of survival that could not be explained by some other means.

I imagine that quite a lot of visitors to Greece over the centuries have seen things through a classical filter & have assumed continuities. We do know of numbers of quaint local customs that turn out to have been engineered by post-Revolution intellectuals inspired by the folk-lore movement.

Before claiming classical continuity in the Rhodes report, for example, you would need to consider the effects of the several-hundred years' occupation by the Knights of Rhodes, & then the several-hundred years' occupation by the Ottomans, plus the several-hundred years' tradition of employment as oarsmen on Venetian ships.

The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.


DW



Hone was writing this stuff in 1825/26

dm


On 1/2/06, Diana Wright <***@comcast.net> wrote:
David,

What's the date of this report?

DW


----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 AM
Subject: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've meant to ask for ages ... under april 5 is written:

There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller, respecting a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs annually at Rhodes which deserves the attention of the literary traveller: it is the ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of boys, crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended with great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring, a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin. According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups, and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.

...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has anyone else?

dm

[Diana Wright]

I'm not familiar with E D Clarke at all, but DM began the discussion by quoting travellers on pagan survivals, which is what we were continuing.

DW
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene O'Grady
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


I guess it says something that for me E D Clarke has always been the guy that found Arethas' manuscript of Plato, and none of you that seem to be more familiar with him have mentioned that.

gmo
----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


Clarke's *Travels in Europe, Asia and Africa* appeared in eleven volumes over 1810-24 ... curiously, it's not online anywhere ...

dm


On 1/2/06, Diana Wright <***@comcast.net> wrote:
But when was Clark writing?

Some years ago, Timothy Gregory of the Corinth excavations & ASCSA was looking for pagan survivals. He said in a talk at Dumbarton Oaks that he had not found one survival or report of survival that could not be explained by some other means.

I imagine that quite a lot of visitors to Greece over the centuries have seen things through a classical filter & have assumed continuities. We do know of numbers of quaint local customs that turn out to have been engineered by post-Revolution intellectuals inspired by the folk-lore movement.

Before claiming classical continuity in the Rhodes report, for example, you would need to consider the effects of the several-hundred years' occupation by the Knights of Rhodes, & then the several-hundred years' occupation by the Ottomans, plus the several-hundred years' tradition of employment as oarsmen on Venetian ships.

The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.


DW



Hone was writing this stuff in 1825/26

dm


On 1/2/06, Diana Wright <***@comcast.net> wrote:
David,

What's the date of this report?

DW


----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:24 AM
Subject: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter


Still perusing Hone's Everyday book, I am reminded of something I've meant to ask for ages ... under april 5 is written:

There is a remarkable notice by Dr. E. D. Clarke, the traveller, respecting a custom in the Greek islands. He says, "A circumstance occurs annually at Rhodes which deserves the attention of the literary traveller: it is the ceremony of carrying Silenus in procession at Easter. A troop of boys, crowned with garlands, draw along, in a car, a fat old man, attended with great pomp. I unfortunately missed bearing testimony to this remarkable example, among many others which I have witnessed, of the existence of pagan rites in popular superstitions. I was informed of the fact by Mr. Spurring, a naval architect, who resided at Rhodes, and Mr. Cope, a commissary belonging to the British army; both of whom had seen the procession. The same ceremony also takes place in the island of Scio." It is only necessary here to mention the custom, without adverting to its probable origin. According to ancient fable, Silenus was son to Pan, the god of shepherds and huntsmen; other accounts represent him as the son of Mercury, and foster-father of Bacchus. He is usually described as a tipsey old wine-bibber; and one story of him is, that having lost his way in his cups, and being found by some peasants, they brought him to king Midas, who restored him "to the jolly god" Bacchus, and that Bacchus, grateful for the favour, conferred on Midas the power of turning whatever he touched into gold. Others say that Silenus was a grave philosopher, and Bacchus an enterprising young hero, a sort of Telemachus, who took Silenus for his Mentor and adopted his wise counsels.

...I've never found any other reference to this practice anywhere ... has anyone else?

dm

[david meadows]

Post by Diana Wright
The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her
virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and
since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were
available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.

Almost a decade ago on this list I mentioned a practice in my wife's home
town of Siculiana (in Sicily) which seemed to me to be a continuation of a
practice of lectisternia:

http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/Older/log97/9712b/9712b.97.html

... any other examples of same from a Christian context?

dm

[Diana Wright]

The ox-cart & the crucifix is an early & basic topos in Europe where relics, saints' bodies, & crucifixes are concerned. Gregory of Tours (6thC) has several such stories. Furta Sacra by Patrick Geary is probably the basic book for this.

DW


----- Original Message -----
From: david meadows
To: CLASSICS-***@LSV.UKY.EDU
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter





On 1/2/06, Diana Wright <***@comcast.net> wrote:
The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.

Almost a decade ago on this list I mentioned a practice in my wife's home town of Siculiana (in Sicily) which seemed to me to be a continuation of a practice of lectisternia:

http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/Older/log97/9712b/9712b.97.html

... any other examples of same from a Christian context?

dm

[david meadows]

The lectisternium isn't connected to the oxcart thing ...

dm

Post by Diana Wright
The ox-cart & the crucifix is an early & basic topos in Europe where
relics, saints' bodies, & crucifixes are concerned. Gregory of Tours
(6thC) has several such stories. *Furta Sacra* by Patrick Geary is
probably the basic book for this.
DW
----- Original Message -----
*Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2006 8:06 AM
*Subject:* Re: [CLASSICS-L] silenus and easter

Post by Diana Wright
The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her
virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and
since WW2 a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were
available. This, to my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity.

Almost a decade ago on this list I mentioned a practice in my wife's home
town of Siculiana (in Sicily) which seemed to me to be a continuation of a
http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/Older/log97/9712b/9712b.97.html
... any other examples of same from a Christian context?
dm

[J***@AOL.COM]

In a message dated 02/01/2006 10:47:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
***@COMCAST.NET writes:

<< The spring outside Nauplion where Hera was taken annually to renew her
virginity has been, since the 11thC, on the grounds of a monastery, and since WW2
a convent where, in the late 70s-early80s abortions were available. This, to
my mind, is a re-establishment of continuity. >>

Similarly there is a spring (of Aphrodite) at the Kaisariani Monastery
near Athens which is supposed to have had the power to cure sterility
(this is the one Ovid knew about <g>)

Even where there is no continuity of customs, there seems to be many
instances of continuity of worship certain sites like this.

The book by John Cuthbert Lawson
"Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: a Study in Survivals"

is stuffed with comparisons of modern customs he linked to ancient
origins.

Many 9thC. travellers DID see Greece through classical coloured
lenses, but they did also record examples of folk lore beliefs and
traditional festivals that may have disappeared since they were
there. My own favourite traveller (after Edward Lear) is James
Theodore Bent and his descriptions of Life in the Cyclades are
a continuing delight.

BTW : Anyone wanting a set of Edward Daniel Clarke's "Travels"
can still buy them through a few of the rare book dealers on the
internet - but at prices ranging from US$ 8,000.00 - $12,000.00

June Samaras

[Diana Wright]

Lawson is problematical, but among other things, he records a fascinating
account of a much earlier traveller finding a statue of Demeter at Eleusis,
piled with manure. He was told that a wicked Turk had kidnapped her
daughter, & that she made the crops grow. There was great distress when the
traveller tried to buy the statue (I think for the Fitzwilliam) but the
Turkish landowner got the price he wanted for it. I don't know what
happened to the crops.

DW

Post by J***@AOL.COM
The book by John Cuthbert Lawson
"Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: a Study in Survivals"
is stuffed with comparisons of modern customs he linked to ancient
origins.
Many 9thC. travellers DID see Greece through classical coloured
lenses, but they did also record examples of folk lore beliefs and
traditional festivals that may have disappeared since they were
there. My own favourite traveller (after Edward Lear) is James
Theodore Bent and his descriptions of Life in the Cyclades are
a continuing delight.
BTW : Anyone wanting a set of Edward Daniel Clarke's "Travels"
can still buy them through a few of the rare book dealers on the
internet - but at prices ranging from US$ 8,000.00 - $12,000.00
June Samaras

[Patricia Lawrence]

Four decades ago, women in Ancient Corinth told
me that the Fates determine babies' futures at
their birth and must be coped with, I forget how.
How to tell if the belief is continuous from
antiquity?

Some little daimon in me warned me not to believe
all these tales even when I first read some of
them in Rhys Carpenter. But was that because I
never believed him on the Dama de Elché? On the
other hand, he is often borne out (Trans-Saharan
routes, for example).

I think that after Independence, with
encouragement from the scholarship of men like
Korais and Vogorides, Greeks were eager to
validate themselves as Greek first and foremost.
Especially schoolteachers, like the one in
Panaghia Gorgona.

On the other hand, I used to have (and would love
to find another copy of) Mega's Ellinika
Paramythia (Estia)--I am not sure of the
author-editor's name. I was impressed not by the
retention of ancient myths but by the way of
considering and telling folk tales whose basic
themes and structures are as widespread, at
least, as IE languages, a telling which seemed to
me very characteristically Greek. If I was not
deluding myself, such cultural continuity is more
interesting and more important than any
similarity to ancient observances, as in
processions or jumping over fires (and isn't the
latter probably older than Classical Greece?).

Again, we all know of churches built on the very
foundations of ancient temples, even of Panaghia
on top of Aphrodite. But that is another
question, and, besides, the availability of well
made foundations of the right size and shape in
some cases cannot be ignored.

Pat Lawrence

Post by Diana Wright
Lawson is problematical, but among other things, he records a fascinating
account of a much earlier traveller finding a statue of Demeter at Eleusis,
piled with manure. He was told that a wicked Turk had kidnapped her
daughter, & that she made the crops grow. There was great distress when the
traveller tried to buy the statue (I think for the Fitzwilliam) but the
Turkish landowner got the price he wanted for it. I don't know what
happened to the crops.
DW

Post by J***@AOL.COM
The book by John Cuthbert Lawson
"Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: a Study in Survivals"
is stuffed with comparisons of modern customs he linked to ancient
origins.
Many 9thC. travellers DID see Greece through classical coloured
lenses, but they did also record examples of folk lore beliefs and
traditional festivals that may have disappeared since they were
there. My own favourite traveller (after Edward Lear) is James
Theodore Bent and his descriptions of Life in the Cyclades are
a continuing delight.
BTW : Anyone wanting a set of Edward Daniel Clarke's "Travels"
can still buy them through a few of the rare book dealers on the
internet - but at prices ranging from US$ 8,000.00 - $12,000.00
June Samaras

[Diana Wright]

I took note of churches-on-temple-bases in the Argolid when I lived there, &
what I found striking was the Ag. Marinas on the bases of temples to Athena.
Ag. Marina was swallowed by a dragon & burst out its side, unharmed.

Coincidence?

DW








Again, we all know of churches built on the very
foundations of ancient temples, even of Panaghia
on top of Aphrodite. But that is another
question, and, besides, the availability of well
made foundations of the right size and shape in
some cases cannot be ignored.

Pat Lawrence

Post by Diana Wright
Lawson is problematical, but among other things, he records a fascinating
account of a much earlier traveller finding a statue of Demeter at Eleusis,
piled with manure. He was told that a wicked Turk had kidnapped her
daughter, & that she made the crops grow. There was great distress when the
traveller tried to buy the statue (I think for the Fitzwilliam) but the
Turkish landowner got the price he wanted for it. I don't know what
happened to the crops.
DW

Post by J***@AOL.COM
The book by John Cuthbert Lawson
"Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: a Study in Survivals"
is stuffed with comparisons of modern customs he linked to ancient
origins.
Many 9thC. travellers DID see Greece through classical coloured
lenses, but they did also record examples of folk lore beliefs and
traditional festivals that may have disappeared since they were
there. My own favourite traveller (after Edward Lear) is James
Theodore Bent and his descriptions of Life in the Cyclades are
a continuing delight.
BTW : Anyone wanting a set of Edward Daniel Clarke's "Travels"
can still buy them through a few of the rare book dealers on the
internet - but at prices ranging from US$ 8,000.00 - $12,000.00
June Samaras

--
Patricia Lawrence
P O Box 16203
Baton Rouge, LA 70893-6203

[Patricia Lawrence]

I wasn't thinking always coincidence, only that we might not ALWAYS
know whether the cult was still known and in some covert way
observed, or whether any identifiable wall remains survived, so that
external evidence of some kind is desirable if we are to assert that
Christian erection of a church deliberately suppressed an ancient
belief (as with the commonly taught suppression of Saturnalia by
Christmas explanation). I was remembering actually a School trip, to
the church built over an Aphrodite temple at Orchomenos. It is a
lovely little church, and I do believe that one, though I have never
studied it. I was only thinking of the distinction between
likelihood and proof. Also, replacing a cult and remembering a myth
are different.
I do tend to disbelieve the Stupid Turk element in stories like
Lawson's, even though it could well be true. There were a couple of
Yaksha and Yakshi statues in India that stood in fields and continued
to be regarded as efficacious, but, again, Buddhism's relationship to
pre-existing and subsequent Indian religious practices is intimate
anyhow.
I am too daft about Greece to be quite objective, and I love Middle
Byzantine churches.

Post by Diana Wright
I took note of churches-on-temple-bases in the Argolid when I lived there, &
what I found striking was the Ag. Marinas on the bases of temples to Athena.
Ag. Marina was swallowed by a dragon & burst out its side, unharmed.
Coincidence?
DW
Again, we all know of churches built on the very
foundations of ancient temples, even of Panaghia
on top of Aphrodite. But that is another
question, and, besides, the availability of well
made foundations of the right size and shape in
some cases cannot be ignored.
Pat Lawrence

Post by Diana Wright
Lawson is problematical, but among other things, he records a fascinating
account of a much earlier traveller finding a statue of Demeter at Eleusis,
piled with manure. He was told that a wicked Turk had kidnapped her
daughter, & that she made the crops grow. There was great distress when

the

Post by Diana Wright
traveller tried to buy the statue (I think for the Fitzwilliam) but the
Turkish landowner got the price he wanted for it. I don't know what
happened to the crops.
DW

Post by J***@AOL.COM
The book by John Cuthbert Lawson
"Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: a Study in Survivals"
is stuffed with comparisons of modern customs he linked to ancient
origins.
Many 9thC. travellers DID see Greece through classical coloured
lenses, but they did also record examples of folk lore beliefs and
traditional festivals that may have disappeared since they were
there. My own favourite traveller (after Edward Lear) is James
Theodore Bent and his descriptions of Life in the Cyclades are
a continuing delight.
BTW : Anyone wanting a set of Edward Daniel Clarke's "Travels"
can still buy them through a few of the rare book dealers on the
internet - but at prices ranging from US$ 8,000.00 - $12,000.00
June Samaras

--
Patricia Lawrence
P O Box 16203
Baton Rouge, LA 70893-6203

[Diana Wright]

Ah, that Wicked Turk. In Nauplion in the 70s, when I asked for an
explanation of Ag.Paraskevi, I was told: "Oh, she was a wonderful woman and
she wanted to do something beautiful for God and there was a Wicked Turk who
wanted to do something bad to her daughters -- they were named, Elpis,
Pistis and Charis -- and so she gave them to him and he did and now she is a
saint and isn't that a beautiful story!" She said it in English so I have
never been able to feel I mistranslated although I do feel my own theology
inadequate to deal with it.

Tim Gregory did find an observance, in one of those caves on the Acropolis
that is a Christian church/site, something he thought might be a
pre-Christian continuance, but my memory of that is fragile.

DW

Post by Patricia Lawrence
I wasn't thinking always coincidence, only that we might not ALWAYS
know whether the cult was still known and in some covert way
observed, or whether any identifiable wall remains survived, so that
external evidence of some kind is desirable if we are to assert that
Christian erection of a church deliberately suppressed an ancient
belief (as with the commonly taught suppression of Saturnalia by
Christmas explanation). I was remembering actually a School trip, to
the church built over an Aphrodite temple at Orchomenos. It is a
lovely little church, and I do believe that one, though I have never
studied it. I was only thinking of the distinction between
likelihood and proof. Also, replacing a cult and remembering a myth
are different.
I do tend to disbelieve the Stupid Turk element in stories like
Lawson's, even though it could well be true. There were a couple of
Yaksha and Yakshi statues in India that stood in fields and continued
to be regarded as efficacious, but, again, Buddhism's relationship to
pre-existing and subsequent Indian religious practices is intimate
anyhow.
I am too daft about Greece to be quite objective, and I love Middle
Byzantine churches.

Post by Diana Wright
I took note of churches-on-temple-bases in the Argolid when I lived there, &
what I found striking was the Ag. Marinas on the bases of temples to Athena.
Ag. Marina was swallowed by a dragon & burst out its side, unharmed.
Coincidence?
DW
Again, we all know of churches built on the very
foundations of ancient temples, even of Panaghia
on top of Aphrodite. But that is another
question, and, besides, the availability of well
made foundations of the right size and shape in
some cases cannot be ignored.
Pat Lawrence

Post by Diana Wright
Lawson is problematical, but among other things, he records a fascinating
account of a much earlier traveller finding a statue of Demeter at Eleusis,
piled with manure. He was told that a wicked Turk had kidnapped her
daughter, & that she made the crops grow. There was great distress when

the

Post by Diana Wright
traveller tried to buy the statue (I think for the Fitzwilliam) but the
Turkish landowner got the price he wanted for it. I don't know what
happened to the crops.
DW

Post by J***@AOL.COM
The book by John Cuthbert Lawson
"Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: a Study in Survivals"
is stuffed with comparisons of modern customs he linked to ancient
origins.
Many 9thC. travellers DID see Greece through classical coloured
lenses, but they did also record examples of folk lore beliefs and
traditional festivals that may have disappeared since they were
there. My own favourite traveller (after Edward Lear) is James
Theodore Bent and his descriptions of Life in the Cyclades are
a continuing delight.
BTW : Anyone wanting a set of Edward Daniel Clarke's "Travels"
can still buy them through a few of the rare book dealers on the
internet - but at prices ranging from US$ 8,000.00 - $12,000.00
June Samaras

--
Patricia Lawrence
P O Box 16203
Baton Rouge, LA 70893-6203

--
Patricia Lawrence
P O Box 16203
Baton Rouge, LA 70893-6203

[J***@AOL.COM]

In a message dated 02/01/2006 2:22:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
***@COMCAST.NET writes:

<< Lawson is problematical, but among other things, he records a fascinating
account of a much earlier traveller finding a statue of Demeter at Eleusis,
piled with manure. He was told that a wicked Turk had kidnapped her
daughter, & that she made the crops grow. There was great distress when the
traveller tried to buy the statue (I think for the Fitzwilliam) but the
Turkish landowner got the price he wanted for it. I don't know what
happened to the crops.>>>

But Eleusis DID become something of an industrial wasteland
(Scaramanga shipyards etc.) so maybe they were right to protest <g>

June S

DW

[John McMahon]

Post by Patricia Lawrence
Four decades ago, women in Ancient Corinth told

me that the Fates determine babies' futures at
their birth and must be coped with, I forget how.
How to tell if the belief is continuous from
antiquity?<<<

[snip]

Post by Patricia Lawrence
I was impressed not by the

retention of ancient myths but by the way of
considering and telling folk tales whose basic
themes and structures are as widespread, at
least, as IE languages, a telling which seemed to
me very characteristically Greek. If I was not
deluding myself, such cultural continuity is more
interesting and more important than any
similarity to ancient observances, as in
processions or jumping over fires (and isn't the
latter probably older than Classical Greece?).<<<

I believe I've mentioned this at least once before here over the years (so apologies to those who may recall it), but for those others I'll point out that there's an interesting book that links Hesiodic and Alcaic material with modern Greek folk practice and belief.

J.C.B. Petropoulos. *Heat and Lust: Hesiod's Midsummer Festival Scene Revisited* (Lanham, MD: 1994)

Reflecting Gregory Nagy's earlier work in this area (his 1990 *Pindar's Homer*, e.g.), P. suggests (17, 82), moreover, that in their own day both Hesiod (WD 582-588) and Alcaeus (Fr. 347LP) derived the theme from a common popular source, that is, demotic drinking songs associated with the harvest.

JMM / LMC